Ok somebody tell me - whats this?
ok how do I attach an image grrrr[/url]
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ok how do I attach an image grrrr[/url]
Get in the trouble to read this
...and come back if you have anymore questions
OK, its time for a word picture
I am looking at the Manchester (EGCC) VOR/DME RWY 06R approach plate and there is what can only be described as an elipse shown on the plan view, I'm not familiar with the plates but its right by the airport, I'm pretty sure its not a holding instruction as the holding point is out at DAYNE.
/ <235 \
\ 055> /
Just try and imagine it without the gaps
I am not looking at the approach plate. However, you are probably looking at what is called a racetrack procedure. This is an ICAO approach that is not used by the FAA. Anyway, it is similar to a holding in lieu of a procedure turn.
That will be the hold at the MCT.
So in what circumstances would you use the "hold" at tha MCT VOR given that it is directly over the airport?
I have not flown into MAN for real but take Leeds Bradford for example, same as most fields in the UK there is a hold on the field. As suggested by a previous poster, generally used when doing a full instrument procedure. I expect when MAN was not so busy it was used as the main "stack".
Its been a few months since I have flown in the UK. Take a look at the "ellipse" on the approach plate. If it has a time (example 3 min, 2 min etc) or a distance on it, it is a racetrack procedure. It is an alternative to flying a procedure turn or flying a 45/180 maneuver. Anyway, it is not a holding pattern per se. It is a course reversal maneuver meant to align the aircraft with the landing runway. Per ICAO rules, entry is similar to a holding pattern except that you can only teardrop at a max of 30 degrees and you must turn to the outbound heading after 1 minute timing. Finally, on the turn inbound, you must intercept the inbound course (unlike FAA holding where you can proceed direct to the fix or NAVAID). Once on the inbound course, you can then descend to your minimums or step down fix as applicable. ICAO rules allow you to consider yourself established when your VOR/LOC course is less than half deflection or within 5 degrees on the RMI inbound course.
This holding pattern (which it is) is used at MAN generally for aircraft doing the full procedure (instrument approach). These are 1 minute legs (wind corrected) once established in the hold ATC and you are prepared and at a suitable alt to start the approach ATC will clear you for the approach 06R. Over the VOR you call "XYZ123 beacon OB" and you will probably get somethin like "XYZ123 descend with the procedure call base turn complete " in response. For cat C/D aircraft we need to go OB on the 217 Radial to the MCT 10.3d or the I-MC 8d before beginning our right turn and remembering not to be below our platform height of 1800ft on the QNH. Once we have finished our base turn and established IB we must remember to call ATC who will probably reply by either giving cleared to land or report at the Final Approach Fix which is at 7.2 miles from the MCT. Approaching the FAF I would drop the gear while slowing to approach speed and select the relevant flap setting (having already set flaps previously for my approach/hold speed) Remember we are maintaining 1800ft until the FAF then set up to descend with the profile. usually 5 x groundspeed (not airspeed) works to calculate descent rate ie 130kts = 650feet per minute. We descend to our minimums and if visual land (make sure we have been cleared to land!) if not at the missed approach point we need to go around. In this case the MAPt is MCT 2.3d.
Now back to the point at Leeds for example this is used as the hold as well, same at Liverpool, Humberside, Newcastle, Nottingham East midlands and many others in the UK. The holding pattern is often elongated to make for an approach procedure.
Well, I don't think the hold is part of the procedure per se. It's just a published hold (as is the DAYNE) *in case* it is needed.
Thus, if you are executing the VORDME procedure you would hear something like "XYZ123 descend 3000, execute published VORDME procedure runway 06R, report established on the 233 radial inbound MCT VOR".
If you are instructed to hold, you might hear "XYZ123, descend 3000, enter non standard holding pattern around MCT, inbound course 235, 1 minute turns, expect holding for 15". Instead of all that, the controller could say "fly published holding pattern around MCT". Same with the DAYNE one, it's published, so it can be used in a second.
This does not mean that these two are the only holdings available. The controller could say "XYZ123, continue direct BAE (NDB) and enter standard holding pattern, FL060, inbound course, 2 minute turns". They can make you hold anywhere =P
A real pilot could tell us more.
Thanks in no way am I boasting but I am a "real" world pilot....so speaking from experience the "full" procedure would be to become established IB on 235 and in many cases this will be from the North, South and West so utilisation of the hold is necessary....remember real world you are not the only AC so at least once round the course will be required. Majority of traffic held at Dayne before being released to MCT. You will notice in the small print under the WHI NDB "Hold if required in VOR MCT hold)...these plates are a nightmare so it is very important that they are studied carefully!
It is important when ATC is without radar that there is a published procedure in place so everything is controlled. ICAO defination of a full procedure:
"A series of predetermined manoeuvres by reference to flight instruments with specified protection from obstacles from the initial approach fix, or where applicable, from the beginning of a defined arrival route to a point from which a landing can be completed and thereafter, if a landing is not completed, to a position at which holding or en route obstacle clearance criteria apply."
So there must be a defined point of entry which is the MCT in this case. I could go on but point being it is a published hold and used for the procedure.
As you suggest it is easy with an FMC to hold anywhere so long as you know the QDM.
Remember, this is a VORDME procedure, not a STAR. It means you have executed the standard arrival and it has brought you over MCT or on a direct course to it. After that, the procedure is clear:
Pass MCT at 3000.
Cat A/B aircraft follow the smaller "teardrop" (sorry can't see the exact courses on the small picture), and the med/heavies follow the bigger teardrop.
Both end up aligned and on the 233 radial inbound MCT and they follow the vertical diagram (again, too small to read, but you can see the curves - pass MCT at 3000, the farthest point at 2000(?) or something then further down on the glide (PAPI/VASI).
The hold will only be necessary should ATC instruct it.
Again, a real pilot might help more
I should probably review the approach plate before I chime in. Where can I get a copy of this approach so I can educate myself on this particular procedure? I assumed it was a racetrack so I had better look at it before I offer advice. Now that I see the procedure, it is definitely not a racetrack. My bad.
Bindolaf...sorry can't be bothered to argue but you are wrong!
I hasten to add if memory serves me correctly in the real world NO STAR brings you direct to the MCT they stop at ROSUN DALEY DAYNE or MIRSI.
Additionally please tell me if arriving from the West how you plan on starting the procedure without flying outside the pattern and using the published pattern? ATC will not clear you for the approach until established in the hold. If they just clear you they have no way of knowing where you are!
thats the link but you will have to register - interesting replies but my basic question still hasnt been answered. if there are planes landing on runway 6 - isnt there a chance that they will crash into the planes in the much smaller holding pattern. I am only new so please be simple also can someone tell me what an FAF is when its at home and answering the door?
No chance as the minimum hold will be 3000 feet.
FAF Final Approach Fix. That part of an instrument approach procedure in which alignment and descent for landing are accomplished. a. In a non-precision approach it normally begins at the final approach fix or point and ends at the missed approach point or fix. b. In a precision approach the final approach commences at the glide path intercept point and ends at the decision height/altitude.
Taken from a site which explains it better than I can!
Snippet from the EGCC VORDME06R procedure plate:
This states that if for some reason you don't have ATC (virtually only during comm loss in a big airport like Manchester), the procedure is, from last fix, straight to MCT VOR. The hold is not necessary. If instructed you will hold there, but you might be instructed to hold anywhere, or not at all. At least that's how I understand it
It would be interesting to see the full approach plate you have shown a snippet of. Looks like an Aerad as well as a subnote. These can be interpreted very differently from plate to plate and person to person. My point is simply this... before given clearance for the procedural VOR DME approach they (ATC) need to know you are at the IAF which is the MCT and pointing in the right direction. As aircraft arrive at this point from various directions it is important to have a procedure in place which is as I described and includes establishing in the hold...likewise only my interpretation and my experience of real world flying. I have not done this approach "real world" but it is very similar to the ones I have done in the UK.
I see what you're saying All I am saying is, there is always a procedure that:
1) Supposes there is no ATC (meaning no communication).
2) Does not include a hold.
You are quite right though, normal operations for EGCC seem to be, enter the hold (stack 'em) and then move out when told to execute the ILS or VORDME procedure.
Correct there is always an approach that does not require a hold. Standard as you know is you will be radar vectored to the FAT for any approach...saves lots of time..... which means money! The procedural approach is really only used in training and if things go horribly wrong which is very rare! (with the advent of mobile phones you just phone the airport!) Having discussed this with friends previously the common consensus is....divert rather than do a procedural approach!
Just to clarify,
Did a real life airline pilot just say he uses his mobile phone on the flight deck - now thats funny!
Actually, in cases of comms failure it's a viable way. I doubt any airliners have had to use a cell, but there may have been examples of that in GA. Not sure.
Some aircrafts have a phone in the cockpit. I have a video where a pilot is talking with someone about the approach.
An article from 1998
Use of cellular phones as a "last ditch" way to maintain contact with air traffic control is being seen as a potential life-saver for passengers and crews of commercial flights when radio contact has broken down. The British Air Line Pilots Association (Balpa) has proposed to include emergency use of mobile phones in guidelines for air crews after studying cases of light aircraft pilots in distress ringing ground support staff.
A report in Balpa's journal, The Log, said: "There have been one or two instances of light aircraft experiencing a total radio failure and successfully contacting air traffic control via a mobile phone."
At present, airlines ban the use of mobile phones on aircraft because of the danger of interference with navigation instruments. But technical staff at Balpa believe that pilots could make calls on personal handsets in extreme circumstances.
Caroline Evans, a technical secretary at Balpa, said: "An electrical failure could leave an air crew unable to communicate with air traffic control. In an extreme emergency, a mobile phone could be a very important standby. It wouldn't matter if it upset the navigational aids because it would be the pilot using the phone and he could monitor the interference."
Under the proposal, a pilot would dial the number for the airline's flight operations centre, where staff could put the crew in touch with local air traffic units. A spokesman for the Civil Aviation Authority said: "I don't believe we would have any objection to this although we are not sure about the practicalities."