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Pro Member Captain
Jon Van Duyn (JVD) Captain

Don't know if you have ever seen this video but heck I can pass by a not show it. It's a video of a Citation traveling off a runway and what it does by itself next.

26 Responses

Pro Member Chief Captain
Jonathan (99jolegg) Chief Captain

My flight instructor told me about that incident - I forget why the engines powered up in the water.

I guess thats what you get for landing in a high downwind 🙄

Good video 👍

Pro Member First Officer
Sico2 First Officer

AMAZING! Why did the engines still run? What was the cause of this oevershot?

Pro Member Chief Captain
Jonathan (99jolegg) Chief Captain

Sico2 wrote:

AMAZING! Why did the engines still run? What was the cause of this oevershot?

I think it had something to do with the AP and AT thinking it was in a mode of flight needing full power - not too sure though.

Probably excessive ground speed on touchdown due to a strong tailwind. He might have touched down a bit too far from the threshold as well.

Pro Member Chief Captain
Greekman72 Chief Captain

😳 WoooW... ❗

I think they tell something about strong wind direct(they show the red flag-how we call this in Emglish?-) to the runway...But could it be the only problem causing the overshooting ❓

Guest

Runway too short , not supposed to land jets there, tailwind, didn't cut the fuel so one engine restarted .

Pro Member Chief Captain
CRJCapt Chief Captain

Great video from a very lucky photographer and of a not so lucky pilot.

From what I can tell the airport is Atlantic City Bader field (AIY), it's a uncontrolled airport(no tower) without weather reporting. The aircraft appears to have landed on runway 11 which is about 2900 ft long. There's no ILS, only a VOR approach. Cessna's website lists the landing distance for a CJ1(Max weight) as about 2600 ft. The wind was a tailwind but not as great as stated by the photographer. Windsocks are designed to be fully extended at 15 knots, I would say the wind was 8-10 knots not 10-15.

Contributing factors
1. Runway to short for conditions-The landing distance listed in manufactures handbooks is the result of a test pilot(expert) using a new aircraft. Real word aircraft can rarely duplicate this performance. The aircraft may have been at less than Max landing weight(MLW) leading the pilot to think he would need slightly less than the book value.

2. Tailwind- Most aircraft manuals allow up to a 10 knot tailwind for landing provided the runway is of sufficient length. This correction has to be added to the minimum runway length.

3. Pilot technique and aircraft condition- Few pilots can duplicate the skill of a test pilot. Variations in airspeed, touchdown point, temperature, can effect landing distance. The condition of the tires, brakes and the runway surface all play a part.

Summery: Pilot tried to land on a runway that under normal conditions would be very difficult and require a high level of performance from pilot and aircraft. The combination of the tailwind and less than test pilot technique, caused the slim margin of safety to disappear. The pilot knew the length of the runway but failed to consider how much the tailwind and less than optimal performance of himself and the aircraft would effect required runway length. From official FAA publication "Airport is closed to all jet aircraft".

It's wild that the engine fired up the way it did. Normally the pilot would pull the fire bottles and/or shut off the battery and fuel. Under the shock of the situation, I can see how you could forget. I'm just glad no one was hurt.

Try to land the Learjet, King Air or the Barron there in FS with a 10 kt. tailwind and see how you do. 🙂

Try the VOR approach in the Barron or King Air with a 1,000 ft. ceiling.
Approach is not authorized in the Learjet because the approach speed is too high. Here's the chart.
http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0613/05789VG11.PDF
http://www.airnav.com/airport/KAIY



Last edited by CRJCapt on Thu Jan 04, 2007 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total
Pro Member Chief Captain
Greekman72 Chief Captain

CRJCapt Bow Down Bow Down Bow Down 😉

Pro Member Chief Captain
CRJCapt Chief Captain

Thanks GM, I put some time and effort into that post. 🙂

Pro Member Chief Captain
Greekman72 Chief Captain

CRJCapt wrote:

Thanks GM, I put some time and effort into that post. 🙂

Obviously 👍 ...And not only to this post. ❗ 😉

Pro Member Chief Captain
CRJCapt Chief Captain

I've been thinking of why the jet engine fired back up but more importantly why did it fire up after the people got off and not before, I have a theory.

Jet aircraft have auto-relight systems that attempt to relight an engine after in-flight flameout. The pilot probably left the BATT switch on and the right thrust lever at idle after the crash. The aircraft uses small microswitches(squat switches) on the main landing gear to signal aircraft systems that the aircraft is in flight. The engines flamed out when it hit the water but the water is shallow allowing the squat switches to make contact. When the people got off, the aircraft became light enough so that the squat switches opened. The aircraft senses an in-flight condition and relights the engine.

PS I failed to mention two other factors in my original post. The damp runway and the fact that the Cessna Citation CJ1 doesn't have thrust reverser's also contributed to Citation becoming a jet ski. I think that many people failed to look at the video thinking it was a Cessna 172 just having fun. JVD should rename it so that more people will pay attention. 🙂

Pro Member Chief Captain
Jonathan (99jolegg) Chief Captain

CRJCapt wrote:

I've been thinking of why the jet engine fired back up but more importantly why did it fire up after the people got off and not before, I have a theory.

Jet aircraft have auto-relight systems that attempt to relight an engine after in-flight flameout. The pilot probably left the BATT switch on and the right thrust lever at idle after the crash. The aircraft uses small microswitches(squat switches) on the main landing gear to signal aircraft systems that the aircraft is in flight. The engines flamed out when it hit the water but the water is shallow allowing the squat switches to make contact. When the people got off, the aircraft became light enough so that the squat switches opened. The aircraft senses an in-flight condition and relights the engine.

Sounds logical. I remember it being the engines thinking they were in a mode of flight but couldn't remember the specifics. 👍

Pro Member Chief Captain
Greekman72 Chief Captain

CRJCapt wrote:

I've been thinking of why the jet engine fired back up but more importantly why did it fire up after the people got off and not before, I have a theory.

Jet aircraft have auto-relight systems that attempt to relight an engine after in-flight flameout. The pilot probably left the BATT switch on and the right thrust lever at idle after the crash. The aircraft uses small microswitches(squat switches) on the main landing gear to signal aircraft systems that the aircraft is in flight. The engines flamed out when it hit the water but the water is shallow allowing the squat switches to make contact. When the people got off, the aircraft became light enough so that the squat switches opened. The aircraft senses an in-flight condition and relights the engine.

PS I failed to mention two other factors in my original post. The damp runway and the fact that the Cessna Citation CJ1 doesn't have thrust reverser's also contributed to Citation becoming a jet ski. I think that many people failed to look at the video thinking it was a Cessna 172 just having fun. JVD should rename it so that more people will pay attention. 🙂

What can i say... Bow Down Bow Down Bow Down Thanks for the knowledge sharing ❗

Pro Member Chief Captain
CrashGordon Chief Captain

A minute ago, this thread was in off topic. How did it get to FSX General?????

Pro Member Chief Captain
Jonathan (99jolegg) Chief Captain

CrashGordon wrote:

A minute ago, this thread was in off topic. How did it get to FSX General?????

I thought it was always in FSX General Dont Know

Pro Member Chief Captain
CRJCapt Chief Captain

The video in the original post is a Cessna Citation jet that crashed into a lake, cool video that you have to see to believe. 🙂 Here is a copy of the shortcut originally posted by JVD.

Checkout my analyzation and theory, earlier in this thread.

Guest

Maybe the Autopilot would of made a better a landing 😂

Pro Member Chief Captain
CRJCapt Chief Captain

Cool video

Pro Member First Officer
robbier First Officer

Yes nice video. It would be really scary being on the boat right by the plane when suddenly the engines start up, and your not even in a position to get away from the plane!

172pilot Guest

This incident was indeed at Bader field, and bader DOES have an automated weather station available on radio (or at least it did last time I flew there)

In addition to the tailwind, I read in the FAA report that the plane had actually been intending to land at Atlantic City International, which is about 10-15 miles NW of Bader, so I think he was actually VERY confused that day.. If I recall correctly, he was in contact with the tower at the other airport, and cleared for an approach or landing (can't remember)

faust1200 Guest

Why it powered up in the water? Well you could start with the fact that super-pilot forgot to shut off the engines As far as the tailwind - he seemed a lot more than 15kts too fast. Even if he did stick the landing...he probably would have overun on the takeoff. Talk about pilot error- yeeeesh.

99jolegg wrote:

My flight instructor told me about that incident - I forget why the engines powered up in the water.

I guess thats what you get for landing in a high downwind 🙄

Good video 👍

Pro Member Chief Captain
CRJCapt Chief Captain

fantastic video

Pro Member Trainee
Sammie22 Trainee
Pro Member Chief Captain
CRJCapt Chief Captain

Thanks for the report Sammie22 and welcome to flyaway. 🍻

Pro Member Trainee
Sammie22 Trainee

CRJCapt wrote:

Thanks for the report Sammie22 and welcome to flyaway. 🍻

Thanks. I've been a member and reading posts here for a while. I'm also in the process of getting my pilot license and read that site a lot to learn, and I found that incident rather easily so I thought I'd share. You can actually learn a lot from that site (if you're a pilot you probably already know that).

http://www.ntsb.gov/

Guest

172pilot wrote:

This incident was indeed at Bader field, and bader DOES have an automated weather station available on radio (or at least it did last time I flew there)

In addition to the tailwind, I read in the FAA report that the plane had actually been intending to land at Atlantic City International, which is about 10-15 miles NW of Bader, so I think he was actually VERY confused that day.. If I recall correctly, he was in contact with the tower at the other airport, and cleared for an approach or landing (can't remember)

sdf

Pro Member Chief Captain
CRJCapt Chief Captain

I think he intended to land at Bader field, there is no way to get(ACY) Atlantic City airport confused with (AIY)Bader field. ACY has a 10,000 ft. runway. AIY runways were less than 3,000 ft. AIY has water right near the runways, ACY doesn't have water anywhere near the runways. ACY is a busy airport with a control tower and airline jets, AIY is uncontrolled(no tower) with a few GA aircraft.

The (AIY) Bader field airport is CLOSED PERMANENTLY.

KACY
http://www.airnav.com/airport/KACY

KAIY
http://www.airnav.com/airport/KAIY

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