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ILS Approach to KIAD

Pro Member First Officer
Ed Reagle (edr1073) First Officer

I went from KORF (Norfolk VA) to KIAD (Dulles VA). It was 137 NM. I set the course and follwed the instructions. I climbed to 11000 feet and navigated via GPS heading till ATC told me to take a right turn to 020, then 350, then 280. During this time is was instructed to desend to 4000 feet. Then is was cleared to land runwaty 1R NAV1 was set for and activated to 111.100. I was then told to desend to 1900 feet. I was on terminal approach then I caught the Approach signal, I shut of the alt hold and let the ILS take me in for a landing. I also shut off the auto throttle to adjust as I approaed the runway. My altimeter was set correctly. All seemed to be going just fine I was aligned perfectly with runway 1R. I was still out about 1.5 miles altitude about 1100 feet. I deployed the landing gear and applied about 15% flaps. Now about 3/4 of a mile from the threshold and it was too late the aircraft gently landed about a 1/4 mile from the threshold and I was about 16 knots. It was too late for me to declare a go around or to pullup. Anbody have any suggestions to avoid this after I pay the bill to Orbit for the damages? I know you will probably say don't approach with ILS. Oh well I have to try it. I am getting better at it. 😕

Regards,

Pro Member Captain
John Hodges (originalgrunge) Captain

You were only at 16 kts? that could be your problem 😉

Could you tell us which aircraft you were flying? That may help the tips get more specific! =)

When landing with the ILS, you want to give the plane everything it needs to do its job. My reccomendation is to set the speed to Vref + 5 kts, leave auto-throttle on, and have your flaps deployed full well before you reach 1 mile or less on final! You can manual-throttle it, but it's a lot harder to keep the appropriate speed on final.

Different people have different rules on flying the ILS, but one good rule of thumb that will usually cause either a steep-final descent or rough landing if ignored is: by the time you catch the glide slope (i.e., the pink marker starts descending) you should be at Vref + 5 kts (can be increased if the wind is really blowing at you), and full flaps. The reason for full flaps on landing is that you always want to land at the slowest and safest possible speed. ATC might assign speed restrictions on approach in real life, but for touchdown, you want to be as slow as you can!

Vref for each plane is different, and totally depends on weight. For the default aircraft you can find the Vref in the kneeboard data usually. If you search around the web you can find even better data sheets that you can match up with your grossweight at the time of landing to get you really on the ball! Remember, the Vref speeds aren't just a reccomendation about landing speeds, they're specifically calculated and tested for the aircraft!

Guest Ed Guest

It sounds like you just didn't have enough speed for the A/P to keep you on the glide slope. I have left virtual smoking craters at many airports due to this problem. 😉

I think originalgrunge gave a very complete and accurate answer, but I have a slightly different technique. After intercepting the glide slope and engaging "APP," I monitor the glide slope indicator and use the throttle to "help" the autopilot keep the plane perfectly on the glide slope. If the indicator shows I'm a little below the glide slope, I bump up the throttle to decrease the rate of descent slightly. If I'm a little too high, I'll pull back the throttle so the plane can settle down to the slope.

In other words, the A/P can't do everything, you have to give it some help to maintain the glide slope.

Ed

spuddi Guest

assuming that the 16knots was a typo one of the things that it could have been is that the A/P was chasing the guideslope.

As you get closer to the threshold the accuracy of the glideslope gets greater and greater. sometimes the A/P is not modelled perfectly and the aircraft goes a little high and then a little low always trying to lock on but always over compensating.
Sometimes it can be on one of its low swings when the ground is in the way.

other factors include a bug in the sim so that the glideslope and runway Touchdown point are not perfectly aligned, i'm not sure about Dulles 1R to confirm if this is the case?

Pro Member First Officer
Ed Reagle (edr1073) First Officer

Ok I 'll make corrections to my information to you all. And thank you for the answers you have answered most of them allready. It was a 737-400. I intended on putting that in here (somewhere I lost it) There is a typo in the speed 165 knots. It was an experiment that I had never done before the throtteling makes since to leave it engaged. I should have noticed but kije I said my first ILS approach. Hey aleast it was a smooth touchdown.

Thank you all. If there is anything else that you can think of I would appreciate that too.

Regards,

Pro Member Trainee
FHeselton Trainee

I fly into KIAD on a regular basis. Although not much with the 737. I have flown the Lear 45, 727, DC9, DC10 and L1011. I will normally fly with autothrottle on and set to 140 as I intercept the glideslope and the indicator starts to move. At about 1500 feet altitude or the inner marker (whichever comes first) I drop the last notch to full flaps and decrease speed to about 125. At 400 feet or over the threshhold, I shut off the auto throttle and idle down. Usually touchdown about 120 kts.

Pro Member First Officer
Ed Reagle (edr1073) First Officer

FHeselton,

On my last landing before I even started at KORF I checked the checkbox on the panel. I wrote down Flpas 30, 136,000 147 KIAS, 132,000 144 KIAS. I shut off auto throttle and manually adjusted the throttles. I did a little better but I still landed short, just before the threshold???? I don't know why it is doing this maybe full flaps will work? I also noticed leaving the A/P on that the aircraft crabs a little bit and touchesdown and canted some what. I guess I am not worthy...??? LOL. There may have been a little bit of wind that's why it was compensating.

Anyway thank you for your input.

Regards,

Pro Member Trainee
FHeselton Trainee

You probably did have a slight cross wind that caused the slight crab. Also as you increase the flaps, you also increase lift. I find that I am usually a little below glide slope before I go to full on the flaps and this returns me to the proper slope with a slight nose high config.

As for landing short, I have many times ended up in the dirt short of the runway (not only at KIAD) when using manual throttle or on new turbo props until I get used to holding the proper approach and touchdown speed. The other results have been much worse (Bounce then CRASH).

Keep at it and you will find the proper touch to get you onto the runway.

Frank.

Pro Member First Officer
Ed Reagle (edr1073) First Officer

FHeselton,

I had a second sucessfull landing on runway 1R. Then ATC with the wind that we had yesterday I was vectored to runway 300, there isn't ILS on that runway it is strickly by sight. I landed sucessfully once, using manual landing and A/P with 113.50 as the ILS on runyway 120. But I was affraid that the aircraft would find the real side of the beacon and turn to that vector so I shut off A/P and glided in on the first one the second one was at night and well you know how things change at night. I over compensated with the wind I wound up on the threshold ok but I was crocked and I think a few hairdos were rearranged. I am getting better but I don't think I am going to quite my day job yet.

Regards,

Pro Member Trainee
limmy Trainee

can some one tell me what Vref + 5 kts means please?

also when im doing a ils with my 737 my speed is set at 156... is that the right landing speed?

Pro Member First Officer
Ed Reagle (edr1073) First Officer

limmy,

According to the kneeboard inside the flightdeck if you click on the checkmark I think it may answer some of your questions. Also there are the weights and speeds in KIAS. For example the 737-400 default aircraft has this Flaps 30, 136,000 lbs 147 KIAS, 132,000 144 KIAS. I found in laning with A/P take off the Auto Throttle and control the speed yourself if you don't you will land short of the runway about by 50 feet maybe. I also found that if you keep your speed to about 73 you will be able to control your landing better. Set the spoilers for auto deploy when you apply the brakes upon touchdown. Do this through the little airplane symbol where all of the other controls are, ATC, MAP, Compass,.etc... I hope that this helped.

Regards,

Pro Member Trainee
glen4cindy Trainee

edr1073 wrote:

Anbody have any suggestions to avoid this after I pay the bill to Orbit for the damages?

Regards,

Are we talking about a real-life incident? If you are talking about a sim, why would you have to pay for damages? Maybe I am lost here, but I had to ask!

Pro Member Chief Captain
Kareem El-Sadi (crosscheck9) Chief Captain

Just a little sim humor....you'll catch on 😉

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