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One Last Time

Pro Member Chief Captain
Kareem El-Sadi (crosscheck9) Chief Captain

I cannot understand how to navigate to and from Intersections to save my life! With VOR's, there's hope, but from an intersection to an intersection kills me. Here's what I think I know Rolling Eyes -- Let's say I'm flying from Intersection A to Intersection B - I'm supposed to fly on heading 050 for 12.2 miles, then at Intersection B, I'm supposed to turn left heading 020, and fly for 10 miles. I have a bunch of problems with this. First off, what if I'm not flying exactly on the path, because I cannot keep my heading exact due to crosswinds, or I didn't turn fast enough at intersection B...this would throw me off, and I could end up 3-4 miles east of the field where I'm landing - Secondly, without having tuned anything, (because there are no VOR's in the flightplan), how am I supposed to know when I've flown 12.2 miles. I've gone through millions of links, none of which seem to accuratly pinpoint my concerns. You might want to know that for practice, I'm flying the route from "Shakih Isa" to "Bahrain Intl". It's a quick hop in the C172. My flightlplan is as follows - OBBS-D060L-CF30-FD30-FI30-OBBI ..cruising altitude was 4000ft. Thats for those of you who want to try it out. Thank you for your help in advance.

Pro Member Captain
Bindolaf Captain

Ok, I see the problem and let me try to help - I've had this problem myself. Others will add and correct me, but here's the outline:

There are different kinds of routes. Some can be flown "VOR to VOR" others are GPS/RNAV only. Intersections are just what the name suggests. Crossings of airways in the sky. The intersections are defined by two VORs and two tracks (one for each VOR). Intersections that are RNAV/GPS only are defined only by a latitude/longtitude. No VORs.

Here, let me give you an example you can visualize:

You see here part of a greek en route chart. Don't be confused by too much information. To the south is the Athens airport and to the north is Thessaloniki. There are two airways connecting the two. One is called "B1" and the other "Z507". You see the former to the left in black boxes, the latter to the right in blue. The "B" airway is "VOR to VOR", while the "Z" is RNAV/GPS only.

Bear with me if you want and follow the route. The Z507 airway starts at the NEVRA intersection (Athens TMA exit point) and goes on to AGILA, KERES and PELAS. Do you see AGILA? It has no other airways crossing it, connects to no VORs. It's just a point in the computer memories (a point with specific coordinates of course) that you cannot reach without a computer.

Check out the "B1" airway to the left. The exit point is ABLON and it goes:

Passing ATV (114.4) follow the 346 radial outbound for 17 miles (you've reached ABLON)
The 352 radial for another 10 (to distance 27 from ATV) and you've reached DILOP. Another 25 miles (dstance 52 from ATV) and you reach OMIRO.
Tune SKP (113.4) and fly the 172 radial inbound to SKP, then the 336 radial outbound for 35 to the next waypoint (you can barely see it up high on the map)

See the difference? Now, this chart is not the best out there and it's not always apparent which two airways make up an intersection, but it's easy enough to follow.

Let me know if you have more questions and everyone else who can improve, please feel free to educate us both Smile[/quote]

Pro Member Chief Captain
Kareem El-Sadi (crosscheck9) Chief Captain

Bindolaf - Thank you very very much for that terrific explanation. To start off, I'm going to refer to one thing you had mentioned..

Passing ATV (114.4) follow the 346 radial outbound for 17 miles (you've reached ABLON)
The 352 radial for another 10 (to distance 27 from ATV) and you've reached DILOP. Another 25 miles (dstance 52 from ATV) and you reach OMIRO.
Tune SKP (113.4) and fly the 172 radial inbound to SKP, then the 336 radial outbound for 35 to the next waypoint (you can barely see it up high on the map)

Your saying that if I tune the ATV at 114.4, then when the display reads 17 miles out, I follow the 352 radial for 10 miles, and so on....well, if I have to follow a radial inbound on a VOR, I count backwards? I don't know if that made sense; I apologize for I'm trying to understand as best as I can.

Also, when following the RNAV/ROUTE, assume I don't have a gps system in the feeble old cessna. How do I know when to turn, and at which bank rate. I'd have no clue as to how far off the route I am, correct? I think that if I can have these questions answered, I'll be a lot better off. Again, thank you every so much for your help Bindolaf. The assistance is much appreciated. Wink

Pro Member Captain
Bindolaf Captain

Your saying that if I tune the ATV at 114.4, then when the display reads 17 miles out, I follow the 352 radial for 10 miles, and so on....well, if I have to follow a radial inbound on a VOR, I count backwards? I don't know if that made sense; I apologize for I'm trying to understand as best as I can.

Yes. You tune 114.4 (ATV) and let's sa you're passing right over it. If you fly the 346 radial outbound (meaning set your OBS to 346 and follow the radial) for 17 miles (your DME equipment shows 17 nm), you will be over ABLON and so on. Now, a tricky part is this: When you tune SKP and fly the 172 radial INBOUND that means you will be on the radial but flying towards SKP (so your heading will be 352). I posted something about radials inbound and outbound a little while back, let me see if I can find it.

https://forum.flyawaysimulation.com/forum/topic/8619/vor-approach/

As for distance, yea. Once you tune SKP you may be 26 miles out (at OMIRO let's say) and you'll see your DME drop until you're right over Skopelos (SKP), then it will be zero. It will start going up again as you pass SKP. When it shows 35 you'll be over the next Intersection (not on the map, but you can see the 35).

Also, when following the RNAV/ROUTE, assume I don't have a gps system in the feeble old cessna. How do I know when to turn, and at which bank rate. I'd have no clue as to how far off the route I am, correct? I think that if I can have these questions answered, I'll be a lot better off. Again, thank you every so much for your help Bindolaf. The assistance is much appreciated.

You don't know when to turn. You either program the route into the RNAV/GPS/FMS and let the auto pilot fly it, or you choose a different route. So you're almost correct. If you have a GPS you can monitor the course. If not, you will have no idea where you are.

Hope it helps

Pro Member Chief Captain
Kareem El-Sadi (crosscheck9) Chief Captain

So if I plan on avoiding use of autopilot, it's best to fly VOR to VOR. Well here's one more question that used to stump me. I often flew long flights in jets, and sometimes, I'd pass the VOR, and I'l be going to my intersection - After I pass that intersection and start heading to another intersection, I end up too far from both VOR's. What am I supposed to do in this case. Sorry for seeming thick, but I really want to nip this one in the bud. Thanks for all your help Bindolaf! Very Happy

Pro Member Captain
Bindolaf Captain

I don't entirely understand the question (who's being thick now, eh Razz ). You pass over one VOR, you head for an intersection. You reach the INT then turn for the next one. What other VOR are you talking about?

In a "VOR to VOR" flight plan (or, to be more precise any flight plan that uses VOR navigation), your next waypoint can be a VOR, an NDB, an intersection, or any other fix. You do fly on certain airways though, the roads in the sky. Now, you might have a flight plan like this: VOR, INT, INT, INT, VOR, INT, VOR. You may end up quite far away from a VOR. If you're on course, that doesn't matter.

And what's "on course"? You have the VOR tuned and the CRS (or OBS) selector turned to the right track (in our example, SKP tuned, 172 on the OBS). If you're following the track, measuring the distance, then you're fine.

Let me know if I'm missing anything and don't hesitate to ask! We might both learn something.

Pro Member Chief Captain
Kareem El-Sadi (crosscheck9) Chief Captain

Sorry, I must have worded the former post incorrectly. I meant lets say you pass the VOR, and then you have three INT's before arrival at your destination. When you reach the second INT, your 180 miles outbound of the first VOR, and so that VOR is now out of range. There is nothing you can tune ahead according to the flightplan, so in this case, your no longer tuned to any VOR. I'm very sorry for such a bad explanation. It's 3 20 Am right now, and I'm a little whoozy, but if needed, I'll try to explain again. This is very much appreciated Bindolaf Very Happy

Pro Member Captain
Bindolaf Captain

There's always a VOR to tune ahead or one in range behind on VOR-dependent airways.

Pro Member Chief Captain
Kareem El-Sadi (crosscheck9) Chief Captain

Hmm.. Strange..I must have been doing something wrong then. Thank you very much for all of your help Bindolaf. You really came through there. All that help was greatly appreciated Very Happy

Pro Member Captain
Bindolaf Captain

Give me the ICAO of your departure and destination, as well as the flight plan and I'll see if I can figure something out.

Pro Member Chief Captain
Kareem El-Sadi (crosscheck9) Chief Captain

Thanks....OBBI-EGLL, (High Altitude Airways). You'll find at one point, the number of intersections will increase to about 8 in a row, and soon enough, you'll be too far away from either VOR. Good luck Very Happy

Pro Member Chief Captain
liam (Liono) Chief Captain

Have you tried this site out Arrow

http://rfinder.asalink.net/free/

Pro Member Chief Captain
Kareem El-Sadi (crosscheck9) Chief Captain

Thanks for that link, however, is there anyway to incorporate that into FS automatically? - If not, is there a way I can hand type each Waypoint, instead of having to select them from the map?

Pro Member Captain
Bindolaf Captain

Here's one flight plan you can follow:

OBBI BAH G795 ALVON B419 SELEG G795 TAMIM B55 BAV R21 KABAN VR21 SRT UT34 CRM UVW704 KUGOS UL851 ADINA UL624 TOMET UL620 LITKU UZ650 SULUS UL984 BOMBI UZ714 SPI UL607 KONAN UG1 DVR.BIG3C EGLL

Now, if you want to go VOR to VOR you'll have to get enroute maps. Look here:

https://164.214.2.62/products/digitalaero/terminals/enroutelist.cfm?charttype=enroutechartscur&country=ename

So that you don't get confused, "H" is high airway, "L" is low. The first of each also contains the legend (which areas all maps cover). Because of the layout you'll need quite a few, but it's ok. Now, you'll need to plan the route...

I write it down on a piece of paper, beginning with the SID. Then at the exit point I note the track, the VOR frequency and distance. And keep going.

For example:

"After take off, climb 4000, intercept ABC (freq) 157 radial inbound.
Passing ABC intercept 130 radial outbount. Fly for 35 miles (you reach ABCDE intersection)
Keep same track for another 15 miles (Distance 50) and you reach EFGHJ
Tune DEF (freq) and fly the 126 radial inbound.
Passing DEF..." etc etc

It DOES take a lot of work, especially on long routes like yours, but it is rewarding to find your way with just a couple of instruments and a map.

Good luck! Let us know if you need anything else.

Pro Member Chief Captain
Kareem El-Sadi (crosscheck9) Chief Captain

Bindolaf - I cannot thank you enough. As your signature says, "if you know your way around the sim, it does not mean you can fly" - Well, I've yet to completely find my way around the sim, but this is just one great step forward, again, thank you Wink

Pro Member First Officer
Martin (Blake14) First Officer

Another way to do this without a VOR is the following. Plot your course on a map and identify prominent features next to your intersection. At the same time, calculate the time for each leg of the flight. If there are crosswinds, you can see where you are in relation to the land features and correct for the wind. There is a neat way to calculate ground speed and wind correction: Take a sheet of paper and draw a straight line. Write down "north" on one end of the line. Take a compass and starting at the top of the line (which represents north) draw your course heading in relation to the bar. Pick a ratio such as, say, 1 centimetre for every 10 knots. If your flying east at 100 knots, draw a 10 centimetre line at a 90 degree angle in relation to north. Then do exactly the same for the wind. Draw a line from the end of the 2 lines to form a triangle and measure the length of this new line for ground speed and direction you should adopt for a correction, by measuring the line in relation to north. In this way, you can be sure you won't be far off of your checkpoint.
I hope that helps Very Happy

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