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Sp2 on dx9 or dx10

Pro Member First Officer
oldsamer First Officer

Been studyin Phil's blog http://blogs.msdn.com/ptaylor/archive/2007/10/02/acceleration-and-sp2.aspx

SO, for me, if I risk upgrading my Xphome SP2 to vista basic (cringe) and install FSX Sp2 I can pick up more FPS. That's over and above the improvements FSX Sp2 provides for dx9 users on Xp.

Humm, Do I love this game or what?

And I quote Phil;
With that said, you now know what is in FSX-SP2 from a DX10 perspective. At this point, from a studio perspective it is time to move on from FSX so we have no future updates planned for the engine.
Crying or Very sad OooH, the sky is falling Crying or Very sad No more FSX !!

11 Responses

Pro Member Trainee
SkOrPn--7 Trainee

And the sad thing is with that much water waves/ripple in DX9 screenshot compared to the DX10 one the DX9 looks more realistic. There is no way that your going to get a reflection like what is being shown in the DX10 screenshot with the mountains and clouds showing such detail. Why would you want Vista and waste money on a lemon OS to get a non realistic look just goes to show graphics isn't everything and to gain 6 FPS big deal go DX9.

oldsamer I would not waste your money getting vista and then having poor drivers so in my opinion stick with what you got and enjoy Microsoft have extended support for XP until 2010.

Pro Member First Officer
Tom (cthiggin) First Officer

Hello Fellows -
My thoughts were the same on XP vs Vista UNTIL I build my new pc several months ago.................
From my own experience, and I know there are several other simmers that are very happy with Vista...............yes, it was/is a little buggy as Win95, Win98, Xp prior to sp1 then sp2 - BUT, my feelings were to "try" and I emphasize "try" to future proof my machine..........especially with FSX............................
My Vista is working great - the ONLY area that I disabled was the UAC . after that, ALL is well.......................

I "think" we all are somewhat "resistant" to change, especially operating systems.................I know I am at 60 yrs of age, BUT, I am moving forward.

With my quad, 8800 GTS, WaterCooling, Overclocking, I'm getting FPS in the high 90's to low 100's in the air..............at very busy airports such as LAX, I'm in the 29 - 38 fps range..........no burps, blurries, just great eye-candy......................AND
NO, My sliders are NOT maxed, but up in the 80% range.................the AI settings are in the 60 range....................................
FSX will "still" kill the most hardy pc's when it comes to high AI............
BUT, we only need to achieve a "constant" 30fps to get everything we want from this simulator.........................

Just my opinion - I fought this low fps and all the other nightmares that go along with "tweaking this, tweaking that", BUT, it's all paid off.

Good simming gentlemen.

cthiggin

Pro Member First Officer
oldsamer First Officer

Note the "reflective" washout on the starboard wing in Sp2 dx9.

I'm sad to see the studio is done with FSX. There are little annoyances that bother me everytime I run it. But that's opportunity for third parties. Will it be a long time before the next Flight simulator?

Pro Member Trainee
SkOrPn--7 Trainee

cthiggin just glad your happy and all is well but the underlying truth is Vista is a dogs breakfast and you only have to look at highly regarded sites as Tech Republic, eWeek and The Inquirer to see what they all think of Vista.

Even major retailers like Dell have gone back to offering XP on their machines because Vista hurt their sales and those that did get Vista are going back to XP where/if they can and so are the corporations.

With Vienna being worked on it won't be long in my opinion before Vista gets shelved and a note attached saying "Mistake move on"................

Pro Member First Officer
Tom (cthiggin) First Officer

To SkOrPn--7 -
I agree with you to some extent................we all know that Win98 was really dog meat and when XP came along, it was such a refreshing god-send..........and XP has been very reliable....................
All of the pre-release info was that Vista was also going to be bad, due to the layering, all of the added crap in the background and the resources required to run the aero interface.
My ONLY reason of going to Vista was the DX10 and everything I had read. Also, I had invested heavily in an 8800GTS 640 meg card.............
SO, on with Vista..............the install was clean as a whistle, not one burp.
Boy, what a surprise when I tried to open anything I had to tell it ok - SO, UAC was the first to go.............I have used the new tweak for Vista and it has really helped..............In summary, "my" Vista works as flawlessly as XP, with a little prettier interface - and my 4 gig ram more than suffices for the added resources that Vista requires........................
BUT, I am ready for DX10 and hopefully have "future-proofed" my setup to some degree.
Again, I fell "we" all are resistant to change when we have a system working well............and especially when we have read so many "horror" stories about the changes we are contemplating..............BUT, in my case, no pain, no gain...................................
I guess I'm one of the lucky ones with Vista running flawlessly.............I have NEVER had a lock-up or bsod.............................ONLY when I keep pushing the overclocking.............but that wasn't the os..........

Maybe the future will be better for us with a better os - just like FSX and Sp1, upcoming sp2, and Accelleration......?????

Good simming,
cthiggin

Pro Member Trainee
SkOrPn--7 Trainee

cthiggin Sure I'm being hard on Vista and I'm truly are happy that things for you have been smooth but for a larger % Vista has been a major problem and still is today. I also understand that many companies are dealing with it and getting drivers etc out and making software/hardware Vista friendly but for what Vista offerers and how much resources it takes XP today is crapping all over it.

Vista in time my pull through and so will DX10 make it's way but I can run DX10 and get the same results in XP by using the backward computability open source code and not worry about all the hassles associated with Vista as well as all the costs. While I can do that I will continue to read and monitor the sites I do until I feel the right time has come to go all out an a new upgrade and select what OS I will use. I have a monster rig that as of today no game is pushing it or it's handling things with all settings maxed out. So for me it doesn't make sense to plunge into the murky water going to Vista all DX10 hardware when graphics and it's been proven graphics isn't that much better than DX9. Performance is lacking in my opinion in DX10/Vista but there maybe a time were that will change but right now bang for buck just isn't there.

Many might disagree with me and I accept that and while your going strong with the step you have taken and appear to be trouble free I don't want to see some poor person who isn't PC savvy get sucked into the Vista/DX10 BS. I urge them to really do there homework and think about what is coming down the track and what is best suited for them not get caught up in the hype.

What makes me laugh is Microsoft promised so much with FSX and DX10 but have since backed up from those comments and promises because................ Well they couldn't deliver so DX9 is still doing strong and looking mighty fine compared to DX10 which is nice but in my opinion cost verse what I see doesn't warrant my time at this point.

Pro Member First Officer
Tom (cthiggin) First Officer

SkOrPn--7 -
I agree with you 100% -
I "wasn't" savvy enough when I built this unit, primarily for FSX...........
I "was" trying to get the fps up and eye-candy to a satisfaction level that I "would" accept...................
You have enlightened me with the "backward" compatibility of DX10 to XP....if and "IF" I would have known this..................I would have stayed with XP -
I have a great "simmer" friend whom I met through this forum, and his fps with vista, and heavy overclocking are just phenomenal...........and he is getting a constant 30fps with ALL sliders maxed........he's currently using a DuoCore........................
WELL, I built the Quad, 680i Sli mb, 4gig OCZ ram, 8800gts 640 - and frankly, was expecting more.................well, my friend enlightened me on the need to overclock since FSX, even with sp1, was such a cpu hog and it is..............well, I started overclocking the crap out of my rig, after his help and hours of reading and learning....................SO, here comes the heat issues.......................had a Tuniq 120............WELL, another 250.00 and I have a hi-end Swiftech 1/2" Liquid.............THAT solved the temps...................my q6600 ver B is a very stable 3.5 or 48% overclock and running fsx temps are around 56C stable.

NOW here's the rub..................I get in an unlocked state 60's to 102 fps in the air...........heavy airports such as LAX, 26 - 37 fps............and my sliders are about 80% - have to watch the AI though............
I feel my rig is pretty good at this point, but I still want more...............

Here's what I'm getting to - You have a "monster rig" - tell me about your results with FSX - such as fps's, sliders, config changes...........

I would like to see your stats for a comparative to mine.............my friend does much better than I do with a Duo - and he's running Vista.....

Just fill me in....................I am highly interested..................and again, you have made very accurate statements of the XP vs Vista...........I was just not informed enough when I made the change...........too little, too late............so I'm stuck with a very good, stable, Vista install that's been working flawlessly..................so I'm not going back to XP at this point......but I know with continued information such as yours........I can get as "good as it's going to be" on my rig.

Thanks for your quick and honest replies - and especially the info.......I'm loving the learning part of this...........keeps this ol' guy going...........

cthiggin

PS> I've said this many times before.................FSX is a great simulator.....but, WE avid simmers have spent the 59.00 for starters, then another 2 grand to get what we want................are we "stupido" or not????

Pro Member Trainee
SkOrPn--7 Trainee

cthiggin I see that over clocking has done wonders to your setup and again your lucky to have someone so experienced in the field to keep you on track not to mention taught you enough for you to dabble in OCing. I must now point out and I know you will agree but this is more for the lame PC gamer who just loads up FSX and his PC dies. Why? Because he hasn't the foggiest know how about over clocking to get the grunt out of there PC to make the improvement to start with so again we have to be careful when we blah blah this and blah blaw that if you know what I mean.

So I try and work on ground level because PC savvy folks will always have the upper hand/knowledge so to be honest we must always take into account the Mr average with bugger all income to pour into PC's.

So yes I do have a monster rig but that is a term I use to ensure that when discussing PC games/hardware people know or have some idea I'm no fruit cake. Everyones Rig is personal and everyone does things that will or won't get better things from there rig than someone else.

No two rigs are the same and while many may have hardware/software that is identical the two rigs will perform vastly different because of the idiot behind the keyboard using/programming it. How is this? Well! For to start with I'm someone that searches out firmware/drivers and keeps my rigs in top performance/shape so that alone has given me an advantage over Mr average who just plays and preys it all works.

I also run a very clean rig and very careful of software I install and very savvy to making sure my rig is defraged and all those little things that take time and to be honest are in some way just a pain in the ass to keep on top of things. But they are all valid if you want a monster rig and trouble free gaming or for that matter just a trouble free PC.

I think you get the idea of where I'm going with all the above because any tech forum the first things when someone rocks in with issues is we give the normal do the clean up BS to start things off with. Once that is out the way we can start the process of solving the issue and the worst part about that is who knows what there PC state is really in and most times it's a dogs breakfast because there not PC savvy.

So yes you have a monster rig running Vista/DX10 with no issues and it's overclocked so that is a clear reason why your frames are up and FSX seems to be smooth.

So this brings me to you wanting to know about my rig and this is the reason why I dribbled so much BS above so it gives you a understanding of why I say I have a monster rig and what my results will show.

I'm running XP Pro on DX9 with nVidia drivers so yes I have a nVidia graphics card.

How do I max out the sliders on my old clapped out rig that I call a monster and the reason I call it monster is because my rig is out of reach of the average gamer so it's only fair to make mention of that fact. No point telling someone who has the same specs that I'm running FSX all perty and theres is a dogs breakfast and there scratching there head wondering why.

To start with my XP Pro isn't like normal XP Pro........ I have stripped the guts out of it taking all of Microsoft's bloatware and crap they have pushed onto you that you do not need and bogs down your system. If I need something I get open source stuff it runs faster and 99% of the time is trouble free so that is the first point I will make.

Next the bois has taken a beating and I have shut down any thing that looks like it will squeak and run when it's not needed. Just remember this stuff isn't for most gamers that just want plug and play but again that attitude also gets you into trouble and bad performance.

Now that the above is complete it gets installed onto a clean harddrive so as you can see all that added microsoft trash doesn't even get a chance to get on my PC and installed........

Now to my hardware and again this isn't normal but I'm running AMD 4000+ 939 CPU a ASUS A8N-SLI, Corsair 2 gig matched gaming ram, Two 7950GT's in SLI OCed and two 150gig raptors in Raid 0.

I have FSX SP1 but this is were it also differers I have stripped out FSX to get rid of all the crud and running all third party software etc. This software runs better than default FSX allows for higher slider settings and most of my files have been altered or replaced with tweaks. So again many gamers don't have the funds to also go out and purchase addon software to not only improve the game graphic wise but also visual/performance wise too. So the poor bastard who gets FSX installs it because he/she reads the box and says I meet the minimal requirements only to find out it runs like Friday night spew after drinking too much at the pub.

So my somewhat old rig with decent hardware that is well maintained and built for performance is getting with all sliders maxed out in Sydney airport a good 21 FPS sometimes dropping to 17 FPS but it's smooth and that is all I need but it does spike to mid 30's when I get out of the city.

So for someone running the same specs as I am but not knowing how I achieved it or the care I take in keeping my PC in peek condition will of coarse be pulling there hair out wondering why they can't get the same results.

So this is why I'm cautious in saying Vista DX10 Combo is worth the effort because Vista is not optimized nor are the graphics that much better than DX9 at the moment. Things might change as things improve but Vista DX10 isn't for the layman to play high end games expecting them to work but that could also be said for any OS.

So I hope that you have learnt something else and as always it has been great chatting with you.

Pro Member First Officer
Tom (cthiggin) First Officer

Great overview................
I should have made the statement for the "average" folks about overclocking...........................
DON'T DO IT OR ATTEMPT IT UNLESS YOU KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING!

I do NOT know how to strip out certain crap in XP or Vista for that matter.
I run a "very" clean setup with minimal TSR's running................have cut everything I can in msconfig.........................
My pc is virtually "bloat-free" - with just my graphics programs for my business - Adobe PhotoShop, Illustrator, PageMaker, Acrobat Professional - that's all.....................
I defrag once a week, back-up once a week, clean-up once a week.......as you have said, in order to run smooth, period, maintenance is necessary in any OS.
And I highly agree - ALL pc's are different................in my statement about my friend running a DuoCore and outperforming me...........he "knows" how to tweak to the max..........reads all the time, visits the overclockers forums among many others...............so his end results are very fruitful.

I have highly altered my fsx.cfg, along with using n-tune to alter my graphics card............................ALL OF THIS HAS REALLY GOT ME TO WHERE I AM TODAY..........................

Two of the very best pay ADD-on's - AND these are the ONLY add-on's I use..............no free-ware stuff are GraphicsX and UltraTerrainX..........did a post couple of months ago....................these two programs "really" improved the graphics - well, just tremendous increase in "good" eye-candy - AND the greatest part of all, I had a FPS INCREASE, not decrease..............................I'm not pushing these two products, BUT, they have been "great" for my set-up.......................

Keep the good overviews coming...............learning more each day and thanks so much for the good chat...............

cthiggin

Pro Member First Officer
Tom (cthiggin) First Officer

SkOrPn--7
In my rambling - forgot to ask - and if necessary, pm me on this one.
When you said you "stripped" the crap out of FSX, what did your "really" mean.....................more that just altering fsx.cfg?????

On your striped raid..........................how did you set it up.......block size etc..............................
I have a striped raid on my other pc running xp.............it helped, but I have read a threat here several months ago about HOW you should set up a striped array to function properly and I cannot find it now........

Thanks again,
cthiggin

Pro Member Trainee
SkOrPn--7 Trainee

cthiggin wrote:

SkOrPn--7
In my rambling - forgot to ask - and if necessary, pm me on this one.
When you said you "stripped" the crap out of FSX, what did your "really" mean.....................more that just altering fsx.cfg?????

On your striped raid..........................how did you set it up.......block size etc..............................
I have a striped raid on my other pc running xp.............it helped, but I have read a threat here several months ago about HOW you should set up a striped array to function properly and I cannot find it now........

Thanks again,
cthiggin

I'm so sorry cthiggin this must have got passed me and I didn't see it until today ......

Yes I stripped out FSX and what I did was remove all the stuff I don't use and many other folders. This came done to allot of trial and error but in the end it worked. I don't use most of the preloaded aircraft because there cheap and look nasty and the third party stuff or payware is what I'm after. So with that I removed them from FSX which gave me faster load times.

Something else I have done is taken a copy of the FSX install and deleted every file in all sub folders except the "Microsoft Flight Simulator X". Now when ever I go and install a new addon I rename my original folder and copy/paste the blank one in position.

I then install the program and go to the necessary folders and sub folders and collect the files that have been installed. I remove all the usual BS that those programs install that you don't need and then make a complete install that I can then have a fresh copy of FSX installed then just dump all my addons etc in and it's all cleaned out and missing all the crap which does slow done load times and cause other issues.

Once I have taken out the installed addon files I then uninstall it and remove all traces leaving only my neat and clean install minus all the garbage.

On my Raid it is in "RAID O" set and is also set to 64k stripe and I have had no issues with it being set to 64 but if you do have issues just lower that number and it should solve any unstable issues.

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