My Citation X falls down like a rock when approaching runway

125kts sounds a bit slow for a Citation X. Is this according to the manual?

I doubt that 140kts would get you into trouble.

the manual says light load 115 kt, heavy load 125 kt, i have more than half fuel in the tanks so I assume i am a little bit heavy......

Der hey...

Just noticed you said 'push down' -- not a good idea. Try a flare

There is a feature on the X that will calculate your speeds and put them on the speed tape for ya.

All in the manual.

Tailhook wrote:

Just noticed you said 'push down' -- not a good idea. Try a flare

I am practising manual visual landing. I follow VASI to make a glide slope, at about 200 ft the ground effect kicks in and the aircraft "floats", i have to push down to regain the GS.
Any good way to deal with the ground effect?

I think theres something to do with the swept wings, very difficult to rotate at landing, i mean rotate to flare.....

Use the flare to quickly check your VS is acceptable and pull the throttle back. I've found that pressing up-down-up-down in rapid succession will gradualy bring the aircraft down gently and will counteract ground effect.

At 200 feet, you're too high to be effected by ground effect. My guess is that you're putting the flaps down too late in the approach and ballooning on short final. If you're not already, be fully configured for landing no lower than 500 feet AGL(above ground level) VMC and 1000 feet AGL IMC using the ILS.🙂

➡ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VMC
➡ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_meteorological_conditions

the user manual doesnt give specific landing procedure,
hope someone can tell me the right precedure 🙂

i crash probably 3 out of 10 at landing, something gotta be wrong

Yeah, the pilot.

Solotwo wrote:

Yeah, the pilot.

🙂) Don't be so hard solotwo 😂 😂 😂

Solotwo wrote:

Yeah, the pilot.

harsh but fair.

use the built in tool to work out the landing speeds. when landing clearance is given (around 5nm out) the gear should be down and full flaps and around 5-10kias faster than stall.

the same as pretty much any other aircraft.

I think I am more veteran than that. I do confess that this plane (CX) is the biggest jet I have ever flown, however I can handle most of prop planes pretty well. Landing has never been too much a challenge to me these days.

Today, it happened again, 5 times all the same , at about 200 feet high and 120kt, full flaps down, and I am sure I didnt forget the gears, the nose dipped on the runway, like some downwash turbulence pushing me down. There wasnt any aircraft around that could make this wake turbulence. At the crashing moment, the co-pilot read the spead 60 kts.... it felt like stall, but i was ablosutely sure the KIAS was 120kts......

Just tell me what is wrong with me please? 🙄

By

sometimes, now this isnt in this aicraft, i jjust try something to see if it works. try putting flaps down earlier or maybe even less flaps and i would say to go faster.... if youre coming in at a shallow descent rate out down less flaps. check what the approach angle is for the glideslope at that airport. i think theres a website outthere that tells you that.

http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aircraft/airplane_handbook/

this link has the pdf's to the Airplane Flying Handbook.
if you look in chapter 8, section 8-3, The Use of Flaps, it has some good graphics.

You are going WAY to slow, try around 140 or so.

That's what I'm saying.

What happens when you're doing 140 - tried it yet?

Common sense would tell me if it keeps dropping out of the sky 5 times in a row at the same speed I'd try going faster..but thats me.

There's the possibility that whoever wrote the procedures / manual made a mistake. It happens.

I learn to fly it just fine from the manual. Never crashed yet with it.

read the manual

Solotwo wrote:

Common sense would tell me if it keeps dropping out of the sky 5 times in a row at the same speed I'd try going faster..but thats me.

Einstein's definition of insanity was repeating the same process over and over, but expecting different results.

Solotwo wrote:

You are going WAY to slow, try around 140 or so.

OK, finally got some time trying 140 kts landing, you know what happened?
didn't make any difference, only dipped on ground faster......

I don't believe it. Anyhow, your perseverance should be rewarded

Why don't you get yourself a new aircraft? ...I know where you can get one for free 😀

nottobe wrote:

Solotwo wrote:

You are going WAY to slow, try around 140 or so.

OK, finally got some time trying 140 kts landing, you know what happened?
didn't make any difference, only dipped on ground faster......

Ok, just stop using the sim since obviously you haven't a clue what your doing, or go learn how to fly a cessna or something.

If you're bringing the the trust levers back to idle at 200 feet, that will cause some aircraft to pitch up and you'll bleed off too much speed before landing.

Try this:
1. Maintain the VASI at 125 KIAS, full flaps.
2. Slowly start to bring the thrust levers to idle as you cross the end of the runway(the threshold), you should still be at approximately 50 feet as you cross the end of the runway and at 125 KIAS. You want to be at idle just before touchdown. When you go to idle, it may pitch up slightly. This is normal.
3. Flare at about 30 feet.

CRJCapt wrote:

If you're bringing the the trust levers back to idle at 200 feet, that will cause some aircraft to pitch up and you'll bleed off too much speed before landing.

Try this:
1. Maintain the VASI at 125 KIAS, full flaps.
2. Slowly start to bring the thrust levers to idle as you cross the end of the runway(the threshold), you should still be at approximately 50 feet as you cross the end of the runway and at 125 KIAS. You want to be at idle just before touchdown. When you go to idle, it may pitch up slightly. This is normal.
3. Flare at about 30 feet.

believe me, I did everything correctly and skillfully, that is why I don't get it.
Anybody fly Eaglesoft here?

I'm at a loss of what it could be. Last resort, let me throw some ideas out.
1. Wx/ winds are calm(at least no layers at 200 feet).
2. You're not hitting the spoilers at 200 feet and they are not deploying by some other means.
3. Recalibrate your joy stick.
4. You're at flaps 35, gear down before 500 AGL.
5.You maintain 125 over the end of the runway but the same thing happens at 140 KIAS.
6. Don't hold it of the runway during landings, you should be touching down about 115-120 KIAS, landing within the first 1/3 of the runway.
7. Your airspeed indicator is set to show IAS not TAS.
8. Your seat position(eye view point) is in a position so that you can see the runway as you flare. You can't flare by instruments.
8. Rate of descent on VASI should be about 600-700 FPM, landing, <200.
9. Another controller may be interfering with the primary.
10. The program may have a problem.

I don't know. May be if you tell use exactly what you're doing in detail, including altitudes and descent rates, thrust lever position and when you go to idle.

As I see it, you have a choice.

A) Ask the folks at Eaglesoft, and get a valid answer.

or

B) Continue to ask here and get told stupid things like try landing at 140 kts.

By the way, for the record, the Citation X lands perfectly well at 125 kts.

I have Eaglesofts Citation and yes, it flies well (the AP is slightly annoying but that is neither here nor there) and yes, the approach can be made nicely at around 125-130kts. 140kts is way too fast, and if you do try to land at that speed, you will flare and find yourself climbing into the tropopause to bleed off some speed.

CRJCapt gives you some good advice there. In my view, you are probably getting the mixture of velocity, flap settings and control movements slightly wrong, but if you are certain you are flying it correctly, then try asking about it at Eaglesoft.

😉

I said 140 since it sounded like he was landing without any flaps.

READ THE MANUAL, in the last section it tells you EVERYTHING you need to know about landing the damn plane.

Its not hard to fly AT ALL.

OK, the problem is located. It's the wake turbulence setting in Active Sky. I checked off this feature, the problem is solved. The wake turbulence simulation sometimes makes the turbulence even without any presence of aircraft around.

Just FYI....

I've seen a number of posts talking about ground effect and I'm not sure what this means. Is it something to do with the software treating your aircraft differently close to the ground... or is it a real life phenomenum?

Its a real life phenomenum, most prominent in low wing aircraft.

When an aircraft produces lift, the air underneath the wing, moves outwards, away from the fuselage. Conversely, air on the top of the wing, moves towards the fuselage. This means that at the wing tip, air 'spills' over from the bottom of the wing to the top, creating a vortex. The forward motion needed for flight causes the vortices to 'trail' behind the aircraft. In standard flight, these vortices dissipate their energy into the surrounding air. However, within about 1/2 a wing span of the ground (in terms of vertical distance) these wing vortices hit the ground and dissipate, producing lift - ground effect.

This is a useful aid for aircraft when they cut the power, a slight increase in lift can make for smooth landings. The larger the wing, the less impact a wing vortex makes thus the less ground effect is noticed.