Help with landing the Cessna Skyhawk

don't put the throttle to idle untill about 5-12ft above the runway. make sure you have full flaps and your descent should be about 5 degrees...you have to follow the hoops though right?

10 degrees is slightly too much for a small Cessna. It sounds as though you are cutting your throttle and flaring too much which means you are close to a stall so your negative VS goes through the floor.

Try keeping as close to 65kts as possible and then flare at an amount that keeps your VS to below -120fpm. This shouldn't be more than around 5-7 degrees pitch up attitude. Also, don't cut your throttle more than 20ft AGL or you run the risk of dropping like a stone.

Hope that helps 😉

when i fly acessna 172 idescend at about 500 fpm on final and gradully lessen the decsent rate about 100 ft from the runway. i cut the throttle over the numbers usually or at around 70 knts. 😉

Great, great you guys!
Man, Rod seems just obsolete right now 😀

There are different schools of thought on when to cut the throttle...I don't cut the throttle until the back wheels are on the ground.

This is called, "Flying the plane to the landing." instead of gliding to the landing.

It's not so important with the GA aircraft which have quick throttle responces, but when you move to jets, it's imperitive that you keep that N1 speed up in case you need to go around, it can take up to EIGHT seconds to spool a jet from idle to 100% N1, running 55-60% N1 will make your go-arounds a lot less dangerous.

NoWorries wrote:

It's not so important with the GA aircraft which have quick throttle responces, but when you move to jets, it's imperitive that you keep that N1 speed up in case you need to go around, it can take up to EIGHT seconds to spool a jet from idle to 100% N1, running 55-60% N1 will make your go-arounds a lot less dangerous.

But when you reach decision height at around 300ft, it doesn't matter what you do with your throttle because you are committed to land, similar to the thought process of V1 when you're committed to take off. 😉

99jolegg wrote:

But when you reach decision height at around 300ft, it doesn't matter what you do with your throttle because you are committed to land, similar to the thought process of V1 when you're committed to take off. 😉

No offense, but I'm not so sure about that. This is purely opinion because I don't know for sure, but the lowest go around I've ever seen was a Boeing KC-135 (B707) execute a go around after the rear wheels had touched the runway.

The decision height isn't whether or not you're going to go around, its whether you are going to continue landing. If you aren't ABSOLUTELY certain you can land safely at decision height, you go around. Anywhere below that, if the landing gets dangerous, you can still go around.

For example, if you were at minimums in terrible weather, could make out the VASI lights and numbers on the runway but little else, you would decide to land, but as you get a little closer, you notice a 747 sitting just past the numbers, you'd be much better off to attempt a go around.

It's always better to be flying than to be crashing.

NoWorries wrote:

99jolegg wrote:

But when you reach decision height at around 300ft, it doesn't matter what you do with your throttle because you are committed to land, similar to the thought process of V1 when you're committed to take off. 😉

No offense, but I'm not so sure about that. This is purely opinion because I don't know for sure, but the lowest go around I've ever seen was a Boeing KC-135 (B707) execute a go around after the rear wheels had touched the runway.

The decision height isn't whether or not you're going to go around, its whether you are going to continue landing. If you aren't ABSOLUTELY certain you can land safely at decision height, you go around. Anywhere below that, if the landing gets dangerous, you can still go around.

For example, if you were at minimums in terrible weather, could make out the VASI lights and numbers on the runway but little else, you would decide to land, but as you get a little closer, you notice a 747 sitting just past the numbers, you'd be much better off to attempt a go around.

It's always better to be flying than to be crashing.

Thats all very true, but in extreme circumstances, which occur very rarely. Obviously, if a 747 is sitting on the runway, you aren't going to attempt to land behind it because you are 20ft below DA / DH and ATC would have warned you anyway.

In practice, when you see the runway is clear, and you have accepted the landing clearence and passed DA / DH (because you have visual reference) then there is little need to keep throttle at 55-60% N1 in case of a go-around. It is extremely unlikely, that on short finals, a previously clear runway will suddenly become occupied, especially when in poor conditions, all aircraft will be making instrument approaches to a point where DA / DH is a lot lower than in a non-precision approach, so you would be able to see the runway at that point anyway.

I hope that makes sense 😕

Pilau wrote:

Hi, I'm going through the flight lessons right now and I've reached the landing part of the aviation deal.

I am having a problem though, when I flare I always hit the ground at 500 fpm (feet per minute) and I believe this is too harsh.

Yes, 500 fpm is too fast for the Cessna. I just went back through the landing lessons to try and figure out what you are doing. No luck. I would guess you are flaring too late. You should be at 75 knots and descending at 500 fpm when, or near, you pass the end of the runway. As you pass the end of the runway cut throttle to idle and pull your nose up slightly to slow your descent. When you are about 10 feet off the runway pull the nose up a little more to flare for landing. Ideally you want to stall the aircraft just as your wheels touch down. Big jets are flown to the runway but small GA aircraft are not. You're the one at the controls. If you are hitting the runway at -500 fpm you need to do something different. I would suggest setting up a flight in the Cessna at Bremerton airport without Rod so you can practice undisturbed. Good luck.

This is where the different schools principle takes place 🙂

I will try both ways, gliding to landing and flying to landing, and see what works for me and my Cessna.

Gracias.

A 500 fpm descent rate over the fence is not a landing in a 172, it's a controlled crash. The discussion of power on vs power off landings is also somewhat misleading as it relates to a C-172 because it is perfectly correct to fly either type of approach. I am also not a fan of the philosophy of flying a small aircraft in using the techniques you would use to fly a large one. A capable pilot flies the a/c he/she is in, using the correct techniques for that a/c, not some general set of techniques.

In the real world, one of the problems in flying a 172 (and most other light a/c) is that if your airspeed on final is too fast, once you reach ground effect, you will either float a long distance down the runway or you will have to plant it. Neither is good technique and, unfortunately, FS9 does not model this behavior well. Approaching at too steep a descent rate will contribute to either excessive airspeed or the liklihood of stalling the wing too high off the runway as you begin the roundout and a very hard landing. In the worst case, it results in a landing short of the runway. In the real world, we call that a crash.

Ideal technique varies somewhat depending on whether you are making a power-on or power-off landing and on the strength of the prevailing wind. In either case, if you are flying a standard pattern, you should be level and at 80 knots before beginning your descent. You begin the descent portion of the approach on the downwind leg when your wing is pointing at your desired landing spot. You either apply flaps (1 notch) at that point if you are going to make a flap landing or leave them alone if not.

At the same time, you reduce engine power depending on your total weight and aircraft charcteristics. It takes a little practice to get it just right. For my a/c with just me on board, that equates to about 1200-1400 RPM. Again, at the same time, I crank in about three turns of nose up trim. Depending on atmospheric conditions, you may also need to apply carbeurator heat as you reduce power. FS9 does not appear to enforce this requirement but if you don't do it in a real airplane in the wrong set of temperature and humidity conditions, you may be surprised by the sudden silence when your engine stops at some point in the approach.

Depending on the a/c and the width of your pattern, you begin the base leg turn when the landing point is at about 135 degrees relative to your nose. If you are making a flap landing, you dial in another notch at that point.

During all of this time, you should be descending at about 500 fpm. The combination of trim and added flaps result in a decrease in airspeed to 75 knots on the downwind leg and 70 knots on the base leg. Once the landing point is at about 45 degrees relative to your nose, you begin turning final and dial in the final notch of flaps. As you establish yourself on final, you begin making small adjustments to both pitch and power to keep the landing point on the runway appear in a constant place on your windscreen. If it appears to be moving down in the wind screen, you will land long if you do not adjust. If it appears to be moving up, you will land short. If you have done it just right on downwind and base, no adjustments will be necessary on long final.

This should result in a speed over the fence of 65 knots and a descent rate of about 100 fpm. As you come over the fence, you begin a round out (a slight nose-up adjustment in pitch to reduce the rate of descent). By the time you are over your touchdown spot, your landing gear should be 10-15 feet above the pavement, your nose should be level and your speed should be between 60-65 knots. You then begin the flare, raising the nose another few degrees and smoothly reducing power to idle. If you do it right, the stall warning will sound a second or two before touch down and the wings will stall at the exact moment your landing gear kisses the runway. In actual practice, the round out and flare are one continious process but they are two discrete parts of landing technique.

I hope this helps perfect your landing techniques.

99jolegg wrote:

Thats all very true, but in extreme circumstances, which occur very rarely. Obviously, if a 747 is sitting on the runway, you aren't going to attempt to land behind it because you are 20ft below DA / DH and ATC would have warned you anyway.

In practice, when you see the runway is clear, and you have accepted the landing clearence and passed DA / DH (because you have visual reference) then there is little need to keep throttle at 55-60% N1 in case of a go-around. It is extremely unlikely, that on short finals, a previously clear runway will suddenly become occupied, especially when in poor conditions, all aircraft will be making instrument approaches to a point where DA / DH is a lot lower than in a non-precision approach, so you would be able to see the runway at that point anyway.

I hope that makes sense 😕

It does make sense, but I'm holding true to my original opinion.

While it is true that very rarely something will happen that requires a go around at 15 ft AGL, it isn't impossible!

A few things that come to mind that are unlikely to happen, but not impossible:
-CrossWind Gust
-TailWind Gust(aka Microburst)
-Unsafe Gear Indication after you've seen 3 greens
-Deer runs across the runway
-False Stall Horn or Stick Shaker
-Tower(or a waiting aircraft) alerts you that you have a blown tire

All things that will require another circle of the airport.

Even if you don't execute a go-around and land with the N1 turbine spun up, you mark it down in the training collumn, that way, when you actually do run into that emergency that you may only see once in your career, you are ready for it.

Another thing that just occurred to me, I'm not sure what speed the thrust reversers spin the engine up to, I think it's around 80% N1, so by keeping the thrust at 60% until you go to engine reverse, you're getting a smoother and quicker transition to reverse thrust. I don't think that's a reason why jets land with N1 spun up, but I bet it doesn't hurt.

Again, I see your point of view, it's unlikely that it will be needed, but in that unlikely event, I think I'd rather have some thrust already working for me, than not.

Jolegg, you're the man, man!
I just tried out what you suggested and it worked, 65knots, with a 5-7 degrees flare, and it's magic!

I touched the ground at around 100 fpm which is ideal! Thanks!

Pilau wrote:

Jolegg, you're the man, man!
I just tried out what you suggested and it worked, 65knots, with a 5-7 degrees flare, and it's magic!

I touched the ground at around 100 fpm which is ideal! Thanks!

No problems - I'm glad it works for you 😉