Becoming an ATP

It is a lot cheaper on the continent - you have it slightly easier. Here in the UK an ATPL course costs around £50,000 (70,000 euros)

😉

SeanGa wrote:

I called Aerotec in Spain (a pilot school) and asked various questions regarding their school and their ATPL course. I asked how much it costs, and they said 60 000 euros!

Is that normal for an ATPL liscense? To me it seems waaaay too much..

Would you be so kind to tell me the prices of your local schools/nearest pilot school (or academy or whatever) so I can get an idea of how much the average price is?

Thanks a lot!

I believe that, that is average (not positive though).
Remember, first you have to get your Private Pilot, then your Commercial, then your ATP. Also there are various ratings that will probably be gotten along the way such as IFR and Multi Engine. And that price, most likely, includes all those.

Isn't ATPL only for those who want to be captains? CPL is enough to become a first officer, right? ❓

VegasFlyer wrote:

Isn't ATPL only for those who want to be captains? CPL is enough to become a first officer, right? ❓

Depends on the airline. It is a competitive endeavour to become a pilot, so the higher ratings you have, the more likely you are to be accepted and hired by an airline. However, there are probably very few airlines that require you to have an unfrozen ATPL - a frozen one will do fine 😉

Yes, but not all flying schools offer ATPL, do they?

VegasFlyer wrote:

Yes, but not all flying schools offer ATPL, do they?

Not all of them I don't think, but the majority that I have come across do.

Ok thanks guys. Jon, when you say "on the continent", do you mean "the rest of europe" (excluding the UK)?

And yes, the ATPL course includes absolutely everything. All the liscenses, books, etc.. The minimum time to complete it is 18 months, and the maximum is 24, so it is very intense.

Btw, isn't becoming a pilot much cheaper in the US? how much is the average price there? Is it about the same or cheaper?

If it is cheaper maybe I'll study in the US instead

SeanGa wrote:

Ok thanks guys. Jon, when you say "on the continent", do you mean "the rest of europe" (excluding the UK)?

And yes, the ATPL course includes absolutely everything. All the liscenses, books, etc.. The minimum time to complete it is 18 months, and the maximum is 24, so it is very intense.

Btw, isn't becoming a pilot much cheaper in the US? how much is the average price there? Is it about the same or cheaper?

If it is cheaper maybe I'll study in the US instead

Yes, the UK is one of the most expensive places to learn, followed by the rest of Europe, and then USA being one of the cheapest (comparitively speaking). I've found courses in the USA for the unfrozen ATPL for just £26,000 - half of what it is in the UK.

ok. well, anyone here who knows about any good and cheap pilot schools in the US? if anyone could've given me a link or something that would've been great. thanks

Try there:

http://www.flyoft.com/

Also, I forgot to mention, that course is completed in 16 weeks. They really are intensive courses.

interesting, but where does it say about the ATPL (unfrozen) courses? I can only find JAA frozen ATPL (btw, what is the difference between FAA and JAA?)

and just to be sure, frozen is only within the country right? and unfrozen is international?

SeanGa wrote:

interesting, but where does it say about the ATPL (unfrozen) courses? I can only find JAA frozen ATPL (btw, what is the difference between FAA and JAA?)

and just to be sure, frozen is only within the country right? and unfrozen is international?

Sorry - I got that wrong. There aren't unfrozen courses. Virtually all ATPL courses are frozen.

No, frozen means that you have passed the exams and the practical, but you have not been pilot in command for enough hours to 'unlock' your ATPL, i.e. you don't have enough experience so your ATPL remains frozen. Once you gain (I believe its 1500hrs which was reduced recently to something different) the certain amount of hours required, then you are deemed to have adequate experience so you then have an unfrozen ATPL - the highest rating.

The JAA and FAA are aviation authorities which have jurisdiction over certain areas. The JAA (Joint Aviation Authority) was created relatively recently, to combine regulations that occur not only in the UK, but Europe as a whole to make it slightly easier. The USA have kept their aviation authority (Federal Aviation Authority) and have different regulations, rules and standards to Europe.

99jolegg wrote:

SeanGa wrote:

interesting, but where does it say about the ATPL (unfrozen) courses? I can only find JAA frozen ATPL (btw, what is the difference between FAA and JAA?)

and just to be sure, frozen is only within the country right? and unfrozen is international?

Sorry - I got that wrong. There aren't unfrozen courses. Virtually all ATPL courses are frozen.

No, frozen means that you have passed the exams and the practical, but you have not been pilot in command for enough hours to 'unlock' your ATPL, i.e. you don't have enough experience so your ATPL remains frozen. Once you gain (I believe its 1500hrs which was reduced recently to something different) the certain amount of hours required, then you are deemed to have adequate experience so you then have an unfrozen ATPL - the highest rating.

The JAA and FAA are aviation authorities which have jurisdiction over certain areas. The JAA (Joint Aviation Authority) was created relatively recently, to combine regulations that occur not only in the UK, but Europe as a whole to make it slightly easier. The USA have kept their aviation authority (Federal Aviation Authority) and have different regulations, rules and standards to Europe.

Ok thanks again.

to sum it up I guess I might have to go with aerotec (60 000 euros). Even though its more expensive than in the US and probably other places in europe, I will most likely not have to rent an appartment or anything because I have many relatives there. So in other words, since I will get food + a place to stay for free I guess 60 000 euros is doable

hey Jon, I found something very interesting.. please check it out and see what you think

The price is about the same as the Aerotec school, and you build flight hours along the way!

I have a question though. At the bottom of the page in blue writing, all the liscenses are listed, but I can't see any ATPL license, only the "ATPL theory" liscense. What's the difference between ATPL license and ATPL theory? Or do all these licenses together form an ATPL license? I'm a bit confused 😕

Thanks in advance

From what I understand, that course is a lot more extensive than just a standard route to doing your ATPL. You are doing licenses that are recognised not only by the JAA but the FAA which does give you the option of flying for an American or European airline, but in total, it costs $85,000 which is around £45,000 - for double the licenses, which makes me think I'm missing something. Surely if you can do half the licenses in the UK for £45,000, then you can't do double the licenses in and around the US for the same price

All the same, its something I'd avoid personally.

As far as I understand, the ATPL theory is the ATPL license. You do the many exams that are set and read the 4ft high pile of reading material and pass the exams - I don't think there is a practical part at least not in its usual form. I believe the 1500hrs to unfreeze your ATPL is the practical part, so the theory and the license amount to the same thing.

😉

Hm.. strange. So if I understand correctly, if you have a JAR ATPL license, you can fly in Europe, and if you have an FAA license you can fly in the US? I thought as soon as you had an ATPL you could fly all over the world ?? 😞

There is another thing I would like you to check out too, which I didn't fully understand:

"You will see modular programs USA/Norway advertised. These are not approved integrated educational programs, but several modular American and European programs from different schools offered as one package. To get your JAR-FCL licenses going this route an approved JAR school with approved JAR flying training programs will have to apply for each student to the norwegian CAA to get the American licenses approved and then get a crediting flying traing program approved for that student. How many extra hours you then must fly in Norway to get your JAR licenses will depend on that approval and will not be certain until you return to Norway after two years."

I find all this JAR and JAA and FCL and FAA ETC. ETC. ETC. ETC. very confusing.. lol. anyway thank you very very much for all your help I really appreciate it

SeanGa, I am currently taking an ATPL course in Portugal and I can say it is actually a very intense course. My dad paid around 60.000 EUR but now they are more expensive. Here's the website of my pilot school.

Before choosing this pilot school I was looking for other pilot schools in Spain. But I found out that they are more expensive than the ones in Portugal. One of the great things that most of the pilot schools in Spain have is that they can do the MCC in either an A320 or a B757. That is great, because you gain some experience with the controls, instruments, feelings, etc. In my school, the MCC is done in a Super King Air. It's not bad, but it would be better to do it in a commercial airliner simulator.

Having a JAA ATPL license, you can fly in all countries that are members of the JAA. If you have a FAA license, you can fly in all countries that are members of the FAA. If you do the course in the US, you get a FAA license, but you can't fly in Europe with a FAA license. To do so you have to convert the license. That is a course such as the ATPL one but with JAA rules instead of FAA.

I hope this also helps.

Personally, I'd steer well clear of the USA / Norway integrated courses. It seems they have slightly different rules and you are just making more unnecessary work for yourself.

Well yes you should be able to fly for a US airline with some conversion - they have different rules that are crucial. The altimeter setting rule and measurement for one. The conversion shouldn't be extensive and complex though.

Yes, it is quite complicated but you'll have to learn and understand it for your Air Law exam for your PPL.

Ok I think I am beginning to understand that JAA/FAA thing now.

Jon, what do you mean by different rules? I need to clear some things up. I think I know what you mean by unnecessary work, but I'm not sure. So, what I am doing now is getting an ATPL for Europe and the US, is this correct? and you think it is unnecessary because I am only going to fly in Europe, right?

"- 300 Hours FAA Groundschool
- 216 Hours JAR-FCL Groundschool "

So basically, if my plan is to fly in Europe, those 300 hours of FFA groundschool are a waste of time? That is a lot of hours.. holy maloney!
EDIT: It is late and I am a bit tired. When I come to my senses I realize that this can't be. Those 300 hours must do me some good?

PS: I don't think I understand the difference between JAR-FCL and JAA either.

I think I am going to call these people and ask what's up because I think I read somewhere that they could change the education process according to one's needs. Maybe I can get them to remove all these stupid unnecessary licenses I don't need.. but really, I don't know whether I need them or not. When I'm done with my ATPL license I have no idea where I want to live or anything.. we'll see 🙂

Agus, which language are your classes in? Portugese or English? Your school looks really professional and nice. how long does it take for you to finish your ATPL?

What I mean by unncessary work is this:

- JAR-FCL Commercial Pilots Licenses
- JAR-FCL Instrument Rating Airplane
- JAR-FCL Multi Engine Rating
- JAR-FCL Multi Crew Cooperation Credit
- JAR-FCL Airline Transport Pilots License Theory
- FAA Commercial Pilots License
- FAA Instrument Rating Airplane
- FAA Multi Engine Rating
- FAA Certified Flight Instructor
- FAA Certified Instrument Flight Instructor

You are doing two of each license to become qualified in both countries which is pointless for each qualification. If you do an ATPL in Europe under JAA jurisdiction, then you will have to undertake a short conversion rating to become qualified in the US under FAA jurisdiction and vice versa. That is a lot cheaper, than doing 2 of every single license when all you need to do is one conversion at the end of it all which is why I'd steer well clear of it.

Yes, if you plan to fly in Europe then all of this is a complete waste:

- FAA Commercial Pilots License
- FAA Instrument Rating Airplane
- FAA Multi Engine Rating
- FAA Certified Flight Instructor
- FAA Certified Instrument Flight Instructor

If you are going to get them to get rid of those licenses, then you might as well go to another JAA flight school for cheaper.

As for your edit, then no, it isn't really of much use. FAA groundschool teaches you the principles of flying in the USA - some of which will overlap into JAA jurisdiction, some of which will be completely knew. So you will either be learning something you don't need to know, or something you will have already learnt doing your JAA licenses.

The JAR-FCL are the rules set down by the JAA. The JAA is the government authority that issues the Joint Aviation Rules (JAR).

😉

Ok now at least I got that cleared up! Thanks once more.

I have made a little comparison of the two schools, Aerotec and NEAR.

AEROTEC -
Ground school hours: 1250
Flight hours: 255
Total hours: 1505
Price: Approx. 60 000 €

NEAR -
Ground school hours: 516
Flight hours: 306,5
Other hours: 416
Total hours: 1238,5
Price: Approx. 60 000 €

Actually, Aerotec's groundschool has 1250 hours(!!!) whereas NEAR's groundschool (both JAR and FAA combined) only has 516 hours which makes a total of 932 hours on the ground together with "other hours".

All-in all including flight hours, Aerotec has 1505 hours and NEAR has 1238,5 hours, and these hours are completed over two years (but the NEAR ATPL course takes 3 years because I get to work and earn money being a flight instructor and build hours so I can get a job as soon as I am done with the education)

It may seem as the NEAR school has a lot of unnecessary work because of those licenses, but still, I will need to do more hours doing Aerotec's course than doing NEAR's. This is what really looks strange to me.

Nevertheless I will call them tomorrow (sunday today) and ask various questions. Maybe you have any suggestions to what I can ask? I'll have to make myself a little list I think.

- Clear up in all this JAR/JAA/FAA thing and ask why there are two groundschools and if it is necessary/if I am doing any unnecessary work if I will be a pilot in Europe only

- ask about where I will be living and how to arrange a place to stay the two last years and if it is paid by them

SeanGa, my classes are in Portuguese, but the flying is done in English. But now they changed that rule. All classes will be in English and the flying in English too.

If you need any other help, you can ask.

Ok I have just been surfing around the net a little, and I found a blogg page of one of the NEAR students. I read about his first days in the US with NEAR, and how the groundschool was. He did say (and you were right all along Jon), that there was a lot of work and that in addition to the FAA groundschool and homework, you had to read through all that JAR stuff and actually SEND your homework to Norway.. so it is a lot of extra work. He even said that you had to set priorities as to what you should read because there was so much to read that you wouldn't get time to read it all anyway.. and you had to switch from FAA to JAA/JAR back and forth all the time ETC. ETC. ETC. which I all think is nothing but a complete mess.

I think I will have to go with the Aerotec school if I don't find any other school in the US and get the FAA license + convert it to the European thingie..

Thanks Agus 🙂 If I'm gonna go with the Aerotec school, I hope they have their classes in english, because even though I am Spanish, I have never really lived there (only on vacations), so I don't speak Spanish 100% fluently.. though I think it won't be a problem anyhow and that I will get used to speak spanish and improve my language.

In some schools you can choose to do the course in English or Spanish. So it's up to you.

SeanGa wrote:

Ok I have just been surfing around the net a little, and I found a blogg page of one of the NEAR students. I read about his first days in the US with NEAR, and how the groundschool was. He did say (and you were right all along Jon), that there was a lot of work and that in addition to the FAA groundschool and homework, you had to read through all that JAR stuff and actually SEND your homework to Norway.. so it is a lot of extra work. He even said that you had to set priorities as to what you should read because there was so much to read that you wouldn't get time to read it all anyway.. and you had to switch from FAA to JAA/JAR back and forth all the time ETC. ETC. ETC. which I all think is nothing but a complete mess.

I think I will have to go with the Aerotec school if I don't find any other school in the US and get the FAA license + convert it to the European thingie..

Thanks Agus 🙂 If I'm gonna go with the Aerotec school, I hope they have their classes in english, because even though I am Spanish, I have never really lived there (only on vacations), so I don't speak Spanish 100% fluently.. though I think it won't be a problem anyhow and that I will get used to speak spanish and improve my language.

The Aerotec school in Spain will provide you with a JAA license for the UK. If you do decide to go to America, then most flight schools along the East coast of the US provide a JAA ATPL due to the popularity of the course as its a lot cheaper. So, the USA do both JAA / FAA licenses so you wouldn't need a conversion, such as the site I gave earlier - www.flyoft.com 😉

Aha I see. well that's great, it looks really cheap too. there are two things which are bugging me though.

1. very intense course
2. frozen ATPL

could someone please elaborate on the frozen ATPL? I have to get it unfrozen to start working right? but how do I unfreeze it?

edit: it also seems that there are very few hours (both ground school and flight hours) and very little variation in the airplane used.. seems like I will only fly the cessna 152, but don't I need to fly multi-engine aircraft as well? I don't think it says anything about that

SeanGa wrote:

Aha I see. well that's great, it looks really cheap too. there are two things which are bugging me though.

1. very intense course
2. frozen ATPL

could someone please elaborate on the frozen ATPL? I have to get it unfrozen to start working right? but how do I unfreeze it?

Yes, it is an intensive course, but the flight schools aren't stupid - they won't construct a course that only 5% of people pass. If you are of average intelligence (which some flight schools will determine with a maths / physics ability test) then you should do fine as long as you are willing to work.

A frozen ATPL basically means, that you have passed all of the written exams set, so you have your ATP license and can be accepted by an airline as a First Officer. You have the theoretical knowledge to be a good pilot but you don't have the experience. Once you earn more and more hours, you build up experience which is the equivalent to the practical part. Once you have built up a certain amount of hours, then you will unfreeze your ATPL. This doesn't provide you with any extra priveleges except that you're more likely to get a position as a Captain of an airline with an unfrozen ATPL.

You don't need to unfreeze your ATPL and its not something you should look for in a flight school nor worry about - its just an intangible measure of the experience you have.

😉

SeanGa wrote:

edit: it also seems that there are very few hours (both ground school and flight hours) and very little variation in the airplane used.. seems like I will only fly the cessna 152, but don't I need to fly multi-engine aircraft as well? I don't think it says anything about that

For your PPL, Night Rating and Instrument license, you don't need to fly anything type rated above a light single engine piston aircraft, i.e. C-152 / C-172 / Liberty X-L2 etc etc. However, for a commercial license, you must fly on a complex aircraft which will be bigger and have extra functions such as retractable landing gear etc. If you are doing a multi-engine license, then you will be training on a multi-engine aircraft.

😉

Ok I see. Anyhow, that's basically what I don't like.. that there is almost no flying, only 150 hours and then a bunch of theoretical stuff. The place etc. looks really nice and I'd love to stay there with those facilities etc., but I think I would really prefer schools like Aerotec or NEAR which help you gain more hours and kind of "get you started".

I feel like this school is more like "ok now you're done with all the ground school. get the hell out of our school and fly elsewhere"

Do you get my point? :p

anyway, if you ever come across any school anywhere for that matter (doesn't need to be in the US, could be in Canada too etc.) please just write in a link and I'll check it out. I want to check out as many schools as possible before I sign up. we're talking about a lot of money and my future after all, so naturally I would love to attend to the school which suits my needs the best.

SeanGa wrote:

Ok I see. Anyhow, that's basically what I don't like.. that there is almost no flying, only 150 hours and then a bunch of theoretical stuff. The place etc. looks really nice and I'd love to stay there with those facilities etc., but I think I would really prefer schools like Aerotec or NEAR which help you gain more hours and kind of "get you started".

I feel like this school is more like "ok now you're done with all the ground school. get the hell out of our school and fly elsewhere"

Do you get my point? :p

Yes I do, but it really isn't like that at all. In fact, flight schools are actually doing you a favour by giving you the minimum amount of hours you need as you don't have to pay for the extra which you don't really need.

Each license has its own minimum on the amount of flight hours needed to take the practical test which is how they've come up with 150 hours. After that, you then have the ability to go out and get a job such as being a flight instructor, where you will build up hours as a career so it really isn't a problem. In courses such as NEAR, you are a flight instructor, but they just include it in the package which is how you get your hours - you can either do it that way, or just start a basic package that gives you everything you need which you can then go and do whatever with. It allows you to move to wherever i.e. back home and find a flight instructor job close to home so is a lot more flexible.

Those type of flight school packages, give you the minimum theoretical knowledge and the minimum flight hours to get you a job. In essence, they're exactly the same, just the NEAR course includes it in its content so you are more restricted.

Yes well I guess you are right. The OFT school is really tempting, I'm just the kind of guy who wants people to do stuff for me. F.ex, I find it easier to let them guide me to build hours and help me get started with my career than come back home and start looking for and applying for jobs everywhere.

What I really want is to have a permanent job at some airline and work my way up to the 737.. so basically if I have to use 3 years to get educated, BUT after those three years I have enough hours to apply for a job at an airline, it's all good and I'd be the happiest man on earth. it just makes it easier so I don't have to run around finding jobs to build hours

Good luck in whatever you choose to do 👍

Thanks 🙂 and thanks for all your help