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Turning Final

   
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Agus0404
Chief Captain
Chief Captain

Pro Member

Joined: Jul 29, 2004
Posts: 2421
Location: Evora, Portugal. Hometown: Buenos Aires, Argentina.
Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:50 pm 

Hello everybody! I've had this problem before and I couldn't find any solution. When I am flying IFR and I'm about to land, the ATC tells me instructions to turn. Then, I'm approaching the airport and ATC doesn't tell me anything, so I have to cancel IFR and land the plane without instructions from ATC.
I remember when I was flying from Charles-de-Gaulle to Heathrow and I was approaching the airport. ATC told me instructions but then I didn't receive any instruction from them. Again I made my landing by myself without any instructions.
ATC tells me to descend and to turn, but they don't tell me any instructions to turn on final, and all that involves landing.
Am I missing something? Maybe I have to do something before I land.

I hope to receive some answers...
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The-GPS-Kid
Captain
Captain

Pro Member

Joined: Jul 12, 2004
Posts: 840
Location: Newcastle, England, UK
Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:29 pm 

If you are flying IFR, and ATC vector you to an ILS runway (as opposed to a visual runway), then the final instructions you get from ATC will be that final turn towards the runway's approximate heading.... there won't be anything after that.

the reason is that with an ILS approach, the Localizer will make the final adjustments for your final approach, through use of the APPROACH or APP mode on the AutoPilot.

So the manual Vectors that you get from ATC will end with the final instruction that puts you on a heading that will intercept the localizer.

Por Ejemplo; (sorry I know that's Spanish not Portuguese!)

"BA8077 turn right heading 175, descend and maintain 2,500. Maintain 2,500 until established on the Localizer. Contact Heathrow Approach on 125.15" .....

So this is the final instruction they give you because they are expecting you to use ILS beyond this, for your final approach.
David.

i7 2600k, 8GB DDR3 RAM, HD 5770 1GB, Win 7 64bit
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Agus0404
Chief Captain
Chief Captain

Pro Member

Joined: Jul 29, 2004
Posts: 2421
Location: Evora, Portugal. Hometown: Buenos Aires, Argentina.
Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:56 pm 

The-GPS-Kid wrote:
"BA8077 turn right heading 175, descend and maintain 2,500. Maintain 2,500 until established on the Localizer. Contact Heathrow Approach on 125.15"

That's the final instruction ATC give me. But when I was flying from Charles-de-Gaulle to Heathrow, they game that instruction and the plane was not alligned to the runway so I made it by myself (which was a hard landing)
Generally, I receive that instruction but the plane is not alligned! That's my problem. And I always have to make sharp turns and try to allign the plane with the runway. Also, that instruction happens when I'm near the airport and I can't try to put the plane in its position because I don't have enough time.


(Don't worry about "Por Ejemplo" I speak Spanish, and a little of Portuguese. I'm not portuguese.... I am argentinian, but I am living in Portugal. Tongue Twist)
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Av8r77
First Officer
First Officer

Pro Member

Joined: Sep 12, 2004
Posts: 267
Location: Arizona
Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 7:35 pm 

You should maintain 2500 until you are on the localizer. They will turn you about 20-30 degrees from the course so that you can intercept the localizer and then you need to have your instruments set up for the approach, specifically the inbound course for the ILS.

When you contact the approach, they will hand you off to the tower, who will give you permission to land.

You would have to make a huge turn if you don't line yourself up with the localizer heading and approach when you have the chance well before the IAF.
Why is it that most ATC controllers can't drink coffee and direct traffic at the same time?
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spuddi
Guest





Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 9:40 pm 

As AV8 says they almost never align you with the runway they send you on a heading that will allow you to intercept the ILS (typically 30 degs off the runway heading) and about 10 miles out.

So well before you have got to this point you must have put the ils freqeuncy in the Nav1 and set the course the same as the runway heading.

Turn to the heading they suggest then fly this until the pink line starts coming to the centre, once this starts turn the last 30 degrees onto runway heading and if you've timed the angle of the turn right the pink line should be in the middle and you should be facing straight towards the runway with about 10 miles to go to sort out the final bits (i.e wheels, speed, final flap settings, Auto spoiler & autobrake)
Then just follow the glideslope down and bingo.
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Agus0404
Chief Captain
Chief Captain

Pro Member

Joined: Jul 29, 2004
Posts: 2421
Location: Evora, Portugal. Hometown: Buenos Aires, Argentina.
Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 10:09 pm 

Thanks, spuddi! That was a excellent post. Thumbs Up! I'll try it out.
Av8r77, your post helped me a lot, too. Thumbs Up! Thank you, guys!
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Elkinallen
First Officer
First Officer

Pro Member

Joined: Sep 24, 2004
Posts: 448
Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 11:07 pm 

Sometimes ATC will not give you lower altitude instruction until,,, well, you end up way too high by the time you should be in a good position. SO! What I di is do the altitude begin descent planning. When I know I need to start descending I ask for an altitude change. E.G: from 35.0 to 10.0 This way all works out.

My decent rule: 1- Average speed= 300kts from beginning of descent 2- Average decent rate= 2000 fpm. so, From 35.0 at 300 knts=

35000 divided by 2000 = 15. 15 minutes at 300 knts = 80 miles out to begin decent!!

Just change the numbers around for different decent rates etc.

This is for the big jets, the example I mean, but, this works with any plane. Very Happy
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Paiute
First Officer
First Officer

Pro Member

Joined: Jan 30, 2004
Posts: 120
Location: Northwest Arizona-- KIGM
Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 5:02 pm 

Spuddi mentioned a "pink line" on final approach. I have never seen one. How do I get the pink line???? Rolling Eyes
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PH
Guest





Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 7:59 pm 

Pink line: I think he is referring to the localiser bar on the HSI.
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